Frodo med Ringen.

Ngugi · **Blev medlem:** sön jan 16, 2011 6:19 pm **Inlägg:** 269

Skulle dock påstå det saknar förankring i vad Tolkien faktiskt skrev;

Citera:

‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’ And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight. Sam gasped, but he had no chance to cry out, for at that moment many things happened.

Something struck Sam violently in the back, his legs were knocked from under him and he was flung aside, striking his head against the stony floor, as a dark shape sprang over him. He lay still and for a moment all went black.

And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dûr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung.

From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.
Sam got up. He was dazed, and blood streaming from his head dripped in his eyes. He groped forward, and then he saw a strange and terrible thing. Gollum on the edge of the abyss was fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe. To and fro he swayed, now so near the brink that almost he tumbled in, now dragging back, falling to the ground, rising, and falling again. And all the while he hissed but spoke no words.

The fires below awoke in anger, the red light blazed, and all the cavern was filled with a great glare and heat. Suddenly Sam saw Gollum’s long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit. Frodo gave a cry, and there he was, fallen upon his knees at the chasm’s edge. But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.
‘Precious, precious, precious!’ Gollum cried. ‘My Precious! O my Precious!’ And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.

There was a roar and a great confusion of noise. Fires leaped up and licked the roof.

Det var Ringen(s ondska) som förintade sig själv, inte någon viljeakt från Frodo, som hade förlorat emot den ondska Ringen korrupmerade honom med när avgörandet var inne.

Egalmoth · **Blev medlem:** ons feb 20, 2008 9:48 pm **Inlägg:** 2426

Cotume skrev:

Har funderat lite och kommit fram till att det är möjligt att Frodo, med Smeagols löfte, hade kraften att få Smeagol att hoppa i elden. Det är faktiskt till och med så jag tror att det hände, även om inte Frodo själv varit medveten om det. När Smeagol har ringen har han valet mellan att gå emot sitt ord och låta Sauron få tag på ringen eller förstöra den i elden själv. Han har inte förmågan själv att göra någotdera och resultatet blir att han följer med ringen ner i elden.
Därmed är det inte sagt att Frodo hade haft makten att få Smeagol, eller någon annan, till att göra något annat. Ej heller är Smeagol en ringvålnad; han är ingen vålnad utan en varelse av kött och blod.

Det var Erus makt som fick Gollum att ramla.

Citera:

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), ’that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named’

Letters of JRR Tolkien, # 192

Cotume · **Postat:** tor jan 31, 2013 10:41 pm

Ngugi skrev:

Skulle dock påstå det saknar förankring i vad Tolkien faktiskt skrev;

Citera:

‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’ And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight. Sam gasped, but he had no chance to cry out, for at that moment many things happened.

Something struck Sam violently in the back, his legs were knocked from under him and he was flung aside, striking his head against the stony floor, as a dark shape sprang over him. He lay still and for a moment all went black.

And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dûr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung.

From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.
Sam got up. He was dazed, and blood streaming from his head dripped in his eyes. He groped forward, and then he saw a strange and terrible thing. Gollum on the edge of the abyss was fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe. To and fro he swayed, now so near the brink that almost he tumbled in, now dragging back, falling to the ground, rising, and falling again. And all the while he hissed but spoke no words.

The fires below awoke in anger, the red light blazed, and all the cavern was filled with a great glare and heat. Suddenly Sam saw Gollum’s long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit. Frodo gave a cry, and there he was, fallen upon his knees at the chasm’s edge. But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.
‘Precious, precious, precious!’ Gollum cried. ‘My Precious! O my Precious!’ And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.

There was a roar and a great confusion of noise. Fires leaped up and licked the roof.

Det var Ringen(s ondska) som förintade sig själv, inte någon viljeakt från Frodo, som hade förlorat emot den ondska Ringen korrupmerade honom med när avgörandet var inne.

Om du går tillbaka och läser vad jag faktisk skrev så kanske du inser att stycket som du citerade är irrelevant, det är på grund av Gollums löfte till den som då bar ringen (Frodo) som han hamnar i elden. Det är inte på grund av något val som Frodo skulle ha gjort i Sammath Naur, faktiskt så har han ju inte längre ringen i sin ägo då. Genom att Gollum har gett i löfte att ringen inte ska komma i Saurons ägo så kan han inte stå kvar och låta det hända. Men ingen kan heller kasta ringen in i flamman.

Egalmoth skrev:

Det var Erus makt som fick Gollum att ramla.

Citera:

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), ’that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named’

Letters of JRR Tolkien, # 192

Detta förnekar jag inte, jag ifrågasätter bara hur det hela gick till. Om Eru hade ett finger med i händelserna som fick Gollum att lova det från första början och sedan visade vägen ut för honnom så stämmer det ju överens med det som Tolkien skrev ändå.

Den stegrande kamelen · **Postat:** tis feb 05, 2013 9:51 pm

Cotume skrev:

Har funderat lite och kommit fram till att det är möjligt att Frodo, med Smeagols löfte, hade kraften att få Smeagol att hoppa i elden. Det är faktiskt till och med så jag tror att det hände, även om inte Frodo själv varit medveten om det. När Smeagol har ringen har han valet mellan att gå emot sitt ord och låta Sauron få tag på ringen eller förstöra den i elden själv. Han har inte förmågan själv att göra någotdera och resultatet blir att han följer med ringen ner i elden.

Det är en mycket intressant teori! Fast jag tror att om det ligger något i den så är det paradoxalt nog Ringen själv som står för kraften som blir dess egen undergång. En av förmågorna den har är ju inflytandet över folks sinnen, och Frodo kanske till slut lyckas få den kraften att verka till sin och den goda sidans fördel. Tolkien gör ju en grej av att Frodo får Gollum att svära vid själva Ringen. Kanske binder Frodo därmed inte bara Gollum utan även Ringen till att verka för att hålla eden? Men Ringen kan av sin natur omöjligt låta bli att samtidigt bedra Gollum, precis som Frodo varnar för (se min fetstil nedan), trots att det bedragandet blir slutet för den. Frodo hittar och utnyttjar här en bugg i hur Sauron har programmerat sin Ring.

Tolkien skrev:

'It hurts us, it hurts us,' hissed Gollum. `It freezes, it bites! Elves twisted it, curse them! Nasty cruel hobbits! That's why we tries to escape, of course it is, precious. We guessed they were cruel hobbits. They visits Elves, fierce Elves with bright eyes. Take it off us! It hurts us.'
`No, I will not take it off you,' said Frodo, `not unless' – he paused a moment in thought – `not unless there is any promise you can make that I can trust.'
'We will swear to do what he wants, yes, yess, said Gollum, still twisting and grabbling at his ankle. `It hurts us.'
`Swear? ' said Frodo.
'Sméagol,' said Gollum suddenly and clearly, opening his eyes wide and staring at Frodo with a strange light. 'Sméagol will swear on the Precious.'
Frodo drew himself up, and again Sam was startled by his words and his stern voice. 'On the Precious? How dare you? ' he said. 'Think!

One Ring to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them.

Would you commit your promise to that, Sméagol? It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. Beware!'
Gollum cowered. 'On the Precious. on the Precious! ' he repeated.
`And what would you swear? ' asked Frodo.
`To be very very good,' said Gollum. Then crawling to Frodo's feet he grovelled before him, whispering hoarsely: a shudder ran over him, as if the words shook his very bones with fear. 'Sméagol will swear never, never, to let Him have it. Never! Sméagol will save it. But he must swear on the Precious.'
'No! not on it,' said Frodo, looking down at him with stern pity. 'All you wish is to see it and touch it, if you can, though you know it would drive you mad. Not on it. Swear by it, if you will. For you know where it is. Yes, you know, Sméagol. It is before you.'
For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees.
'Down! down! ' said Frodo. `Now speak your promise!'
`We promises, yes I promise!' said Gollum. 'I will serve the master of the Precious. Good master, good Sméagol, gollum, gollum!' Suddenly he began to weep and bite at his ankle again.
'Take the rope off, Sam!' said Frodo.

Om det skulle ligga något i att Tolkien tänkte så här så utesluter det naturligtvis inte det där andra, det med Försynen. Att den var med i spelet vet vi, det har han ju själv sagt.

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Frodo med Ringen.

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