Tolkiens Arda – Sveriges stora Tolkienforum

[Detta inlägg består av två sådana som redigerats och fogats samman vid moderering, på författarens önskemål. Målsättningen med denna tråd är att klarna bilden av de slag som utkämpats i Arda. /Gustav]

I denna avdelning tänkte jag att vi kunde räkna ut på ett ungefär hur många soldater som deltog i Midgårds olika slag. Först tänkte jag att vi skulle ta och samla ihop så mycket information som möjligt, om så gott som alla slag som det står om i Tolkiens böcker. När det är klar tänkte jag att vi kan börja med att lägga ihop all fakta, och försöka komma fram till hur många soldater som de olika arméerna hade. Om vissa slag finns det rätt så bra uppgifter, som t. ex. slaget vid Helms klyfta. Genom att vi vet hur många soldater som deltog i det slaget, hur länge det höll på, vilka folkslag som deltog osv kan vi jämföra det med andra slag, och försöka räkna ut hur många soldater som deltog i dem. Om vi t. ex. vet att i slag A fanns det 100 stycken soldater, och slaget var över på 8 timmar, och att slag B var över på 4 stycken timmar, så borde slag B ha haft 50 stycken soldater medverkande. Förenklat sett är det så jag tänkte att vi skulle kunna komma fram till hur stora arméerna var.

Vad är meningen med allt detta då? Jo, de siffror vi får fram kommer senare kunna användas i ett uppslagsverk, som Aeglos mfl. arbetar med. Experterna på Tolkiens Arda kan också använda sig av dem, ifall de får några frågor som rör saken.

Jag kör igång med detsamma här nere. Jag börjar att skriva lite om slaget vid Dagorlad. Om det är nån som känner till några fler uppgifter utöver dem som står nedan, är det bara att lägga till dem i ett nytt inlägg. Det går också bra att skriva fakta om nåt annat slag. Det spelar ingen roll om det bara är en mening eller 30 meningar. All information är välkommen.

Har ni några förslag är det bara att skriva ner dem. Ska vi kanske dela upp det hela på ett bättre sätt? En tråd för varje slag eller nåt sånt. Håll inte inne med era åsikter!

Slaget vid Dagorlad.

1.”Därför bildade de nu det förbund som kallats Sista alliansen, och de marscherade österut in i Midgård och samlade en stor här av alver och människor; och för en tid gjorde de halt vid Imladris. Det sägs att den här de samlade var skönare och mer vapenstark än någon som senare skådats i Midgård, och att ingen starkare här samlats sedan valars skaror ryckte fram mot Thangorodrim. Från Imladris fortsatte de över Dimmiga bergen genom många pass och marscherade vidare längs Anduins flod och stötte slutligen samman med Saurons skaror på Dagorlad, Slagfältet, som ligger vid Svarta landets port. Den dagen var alla levande varelser uppdelade mot varandra, och några av vart slag, till och med bland fåglar och fyrfota djur, påträffades i båda härarna, alla utom alverna. Alverna allena stod enade och följde alla Gil-galad. Bland dvärgarna kämpade endast ett fåtal på någondera sidan; men de som var fränder till Durin av Moria stred mot Sauron.
Och Gil-galads och Elendils skaror vann segern, ty alvernas makt var fortfarande stor i dessa dagar, och númenoranerna var starka och högresta och fruktansvärda i sitt raseri. Mot Aeglos, Gil-galads spjut, kunde ingen fiende hålla stånd; och Elendils svärd uppfyllde både orcher och människor med fruktan, ty det lyste som solen och som månen; och det bar namnet Narsil.
Därefter ryckte Gil-galad och Elendil in i Mordor och omringade Saurons fäste; och de belägrade det i sju år och led svåra förluster genom eld och genom Fiendens pilar och viggar, och Sauron sände ut sina styrkor i många utfall mot dem.” (från Silmarillion, sida 320)

2.”Valandil tog sin boning i Annúminas, men hans folk var försvagat, och av númenoranerna och Eriadors människor återstod nu alltför få för att kunna befolka alla de städer som Elendil hade byggt; så många hade fallit i Dagorlad och i Mordor och på Glitterfälten.” (från Silmarillion sid 322)

3.”Yes, yes, said Gollum. All dead, all rotten. Elves and Men and Orcs. The Dead Marshes. There was a great battle long ago, yes, so they told him when Sméagol was young, when I was young before the Precious came. It was a great battle. Tall Men with long swords, and terrible Elves, and Orcses shrieking. They fought on the plain for days and months at the Black Gates. But the Marshes have grown since then...” (från TTT vid Döda träsken, sida 288.)

4.“...and they made the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, and the hosts of Gil-galad and Elendil were mustered in Arnor.
Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. I remember well the splendour of their banners, he said. It recalled to me the glory of the Elder days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken...” (Elronds ord, sida 318 i FOTR)

5.“Sedan upplevde Lórien en lång tid av fred och bortglömdhet under sin egen konung Amdír, intill Númenors fall och Saurons plötsliga återkomst till Midgård. Amdír lystrade till Gil-galads kallelse och förde med sig så stora styrkor han alls förmådde uppbåda till Sista Alliansen, men dräptes i Dagorlads slag, med huvudparten av de män han fört med sig.” (från Sagor från Midgård, sida 326)

6.”De silvarinska alvernas ständiga önskan var att blanda sig så lite som möjligt i noldors och sindars angelägenheter, och i andra folks angelägenheter också, vare sig det gällde dvärgar, människor eller orcher, men Oropher var klok nog att inse att ingen fred var möjlig i Midgård förrän Sauron besegrats. Därför samlade han en stor härskara bland sitt numera talrika folk och slöt sig samman med Malgalads av Lórien mindre härsmakt och förde silvanernas skaror i strid. Silvanerna var uthålliga och modiga, men dåligt rustade med kroppspansar och vapen i jämförelse med västerns eldar; dessutom hade de stark självkänsla och ville inte underordna sig Gil-galads överkomando. Därför blev deras förluster också ännu svårare än de behövde ha blivit ens i detta fruktansvärda krig. Malgalad stupade med mer än hälften av sitt följe i Dagorlads stora slag, sedan hans skaror skurits av från huvudstyrkan och drivits ut i Döda träsken. Och Oropher dräptes i det första angreppet mot Mordor, när han störtade fram i spetsen för sina mest beprövade kämpar innan Gil-galad ännu hade givit signal till anfall. Hans son Thranduil överlevde, men när kriget till slut var över och Sauron (som det tycktes) låg slagen, förde han hem knappt en tredjedel av den härsmakt som marscherat ut i kriget.” (från Sagor från Midgård, sida 345) fotnot: Malgalad var troligen densamme som Amdír.

Värt att notera är att Gollum påstår att slaget vid Svarta portarna pågick i månader! I citat nummer ett sägs dock ” Den dagen var alla levande varelser…” Lägg märke till ”den dagen”. I citat nummer sex sägs ”… ville inte underordna sig Gil-galads överkommando.” Vilket inte stämmer överens med citat nummer ett, där det står: ”Alverna allena stod enade och följde alla Gil-galad” Citat nummer ett är taget från Silmarillion, och får nog anses som mest riktigt. En annan intessant sak är att det fannsdöda kroppar så långt bort som vid Döda träsken. Det säger väl något om slagets storlek.

Vi vet att Sista alliansens armé bestod av mestadels människor och alver. Alverna var noldor, silvaner och sindar. Människorna var dúnedain samt ”vanliga människor”. Dvärgarna som deltog var väldigt få. Det står i första citatet: ” Den dagen var alla levande varelser uppdelade mot varandra, och några av vart slag, till och med bland fåglar och fyrfota djur, påträffades i båda härarna, alla utom alverna”. Denna mening får nog tas med en nypa salt, men jag tycker inte att den skall ignoreras helt och hållet! Orcherna och trollen fanns nog t. ex. inte på Sista alliansens sida. Man kan ju tänka sig att det menas att alverna var de enda som bara fanns på den goda sidan, men att många fanns bara på den onda sidan. Det är oklart hurvida det deltog några drakar, troligen inte. Balroger fanns med största säkerhet inte med. Örnar kan mycket väl ha påträffats i båda härarna. I Saurons här fanns troligen en massa konstiga monster som t. ex. jättespindlar. Men alla ”djur” uppvägde antagligen varandra i de båda härarna, man kan nog anta att det var ungefär lika många i båda härarna. Till största delen bestod med stor säkerhet de båda härarna av orcher, människor och alver. Det är kanske deras antal vi skall inrikta oss på att räkna ut?

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I den här tråden kan vi också diskutera storleken på olika arméer. Det är alltså här som jag tänkte att vi i slutendan skall komma fram till hur stora alla arméer är. Om det är nån som har en åsikt om någon armé, hur stor den är, om en armé är större än en annan, vilken armé som skulle vinna över vilken osv, så kan den skriva det här. Även fast inte allt faktasamlande är klart, kan man ju börja lite smått med att diskutera sådana saker nu.

Vilken här tror ni t. ex. var näst störst efter den här som krossade Morgoth i Första ålderns slut?

Jag är väldigt osäker på vilken som kommer efter men jag tycker att det borde vara den här som Noldor hade när de belägrade Angmar.

Jag har för mig att det står nånstans att Sista alliansen skulle vara den närst största här genom alla tider? Har jag fel?

Så här står det om Sista alliansens här i Silmarillion: "Det sägs att den här de samlade var skönare och mer vapenstark än någon som senare skådats i Midgård, och att ingen starkare här samlats sedan valars skaror ryckte fram mot Thangorodrim." Det betyder ju dock inte att det inte funnits någon starkare här innan Thangorodrim störtades. Men personligen anser jag att Sista alliansen är den näst största.

Det blir ju den näst största då.

Kanske. Det skall nog gå att räkna ut nogorlunda bra hur stora arméerna under första åldern kan ha varit var, hoppas jag... Det nämns ju t.ex. nånstans i Silmarillion att Turgon hade med sig 10 000 soldater till Nirnaeth Arnoediad. På ett annat ställe nämns att Turgon förde med sig en tredjedel av alla noldor som följt Fingolfin till Gondolin när det grundades, och en ännu större skara av sindar. Sådana uppgifter kan man räkna ut en del med.

Jag har inte börjat skriva upp så mycket sån fakta än, jag tänkte att vi skulle bli lite fler först. Men det verkar inte vara så många intresserade...

Inga fler som anslutit sig än?

Nej, tyvärr. Jag hade hoppats att det skulle bli lite fler. Anledningen till attt jag inte skrivit upp nån mer fakta är att jag väntat på att fler skall anmäla sig först, men det verkar inte bli nån mer... Dessutom har jag min ROTK utlånad och det är från slaget vid Pelennor som jag tänkte skriva ner lite härnäst. Så fort jag får tillbaka den och har "lite" tid över skall jag försöka samla ihop några uppgifter därifrån.

Sarvi här på forumet tipsade mig om en engelsk sida där några Tolkienfans diskuterade slaget vid Pelennor. Jag har bara kollat som hastigast på det som står där, men de verkar ha ett ganska bra resonemang.

Här nedan är allt som stod på sidan. Det kan vara bra att ta hjälp av/jämföra med när vi sätter igång med att utreda slaget på Pelennors fält.



Not sure if maybe this topic belongs in Free Fire Zone (it may be too frivolous for some), but I wanted to discuss the military aspects of the Siege of Gondor and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields from Lord of the Rings.
Specifically, the fighting in the ruined city of Osgiliath.
Osgiliath was the deserted ancient capital which sat on both banks of the Anduin river, at the easiest and most likely crossing point for an army moving in either direction. It had a great bridge once, but at the time of the siege and battle, that bridge had been torn down.
It had been done on purpose by the Gondorians so that the armies of Mordor would be denied its use - the armies of Men (Gondor's and Rohan's) were hardly expected to be attacking in the opposite direction. Still, if Sauron's armies were to cross the Anduin, even if on boats, Osgiliath would be the place to do it, as there the river was narrow and the current slow, relatively.
So, on to the gripes.
In the Peter Jackson movie, the elite but relatively few Gondor cavalry make a suicidal charge aimed at recapturing the city of Osgiliath. They and the audience know it's hopeless in the face of the enemy already behind defensive positions (presumably caltrops, stakes etc) inside the city.
I and some friends discussed this, and my impression was that fighting in Osgiliath seemed to make a lot more sense in the book:
The point about fighting initially in Osgiliath instead of pulling everyone back into Minas Tirith (a fortress-city 20+ leagues to the west) was to inflict the maximum number of casualties and to buy the most time possible.
Though Minas Tirith was "a mighty fortress", the fight there would be essentially a set-piece siege between the defenders and the vast army of Sauron.
Not so in Osgiliath. The Anduin River was a great water barrier (think of the Rhine, the Danube and indeed of any of the world's large rivers). The Mordor Orcs, Uruk-hai and evil Men would have to assault in boats, and they would be extremely vulnerable to archery and crossbows. When they got ashore, there would still be an initial period of confusion during which they could be engaged in melee and many more killed.
Basically, the captains of Gondor, including Gandalf, saw an excellent chance to hurt the enemy and slow his deployment before the walls of Minas Tirith. This would not win the battle, but would buy precious time for the arrival of either the Rohirrim or the Gondor reinforcements from the provinces and fiefs, preferably of both.
Of course, the tricky part about a battle in Osgiliath was the withdrawal: timing it just right, and preventing it turning into a rout.
Inevitably, Sauron's fanatical armies full of bloodlust and with weight of numbers on their side would overrun Osgiliath.
At that point, the Gondorians would have to retreat over open fields across the long miles to Minas Tirith, the enemy hordes hot on their heels. If they were to make it back at all, their discipline would have to hold, their morale have to remain intact - the withdrawal an orderly affair. To break and run would have meant slaughter. (In the book, only Faramir's leadership narrowly prevents this.)
[Under no circumstances would a counterattack against an enemy already in possession of Osgiliath be contemplated: that would be useless and far too late to affect the real battle - that for Minas Tirith at the Pelennor Fields.]

So the questions:
Were the possible gains worth the risks? Ought the captains of Gondor pull out the garrison of Osgiliath and the Rangers of Ithilien before the enemy assault? Were these forces more useful in Osgiliath (a lost cause, but one where the enemy could be bloodied more than before the walls of Minas Tirith) or held in reserve and safety, with no need for a long, harrassed retreat?

By Yama 08 Jan 2004, 06:24

quote:Originally posted by Heirophant:

Were the possible gains worth the risks? Ought the captains of Gondor pull out the garrison of Osgiliath and the Rangers of Ithilien before the enemy assault? Were these forces more useful in Osgiliath (a lost cause, but one where the enemy could be bloodied more than before the walls of Minas Tirith) or held in reserve and safety, with no need for a long, harrassed retreat?
I think you are right (and Denethor was too, insisting that Rammas and Osgiliath should be defended). If enemy was let to siege directly the walls of the city, the battle was ultimately lost. Gondor would lose all freedom of maneuver and eventually city would be very badly damaged even if walls remained unbreached. Plus, Sauron had a great psychological weapon - the Nazgul - who would eventually drive the defenders insane. Remember, city was also full of civilians who were supposed to be protected - entire point of the battle! One of the neat things I liked about RotK was that civilians were well depicted - too often we're led to assume that all cities are just convenient fortresses full of troops.
I didn't like how Denethor's character was handled in the movie. In the book, he is wise but misled ruler. In the movie, he is made to look like a psycho. I hope Extended Edition deepens his character, just like TT did to Faramir&Boromir.
What went wrong for Gondor was that Southern Provinces only managed to deliver a fraction of those troops which they were supposed to - due to threat of Umbar. Also, Saruman delayed and weakened Rohan. So, Gondor just didn't have enough troops for their battle plan.
I think Sauron originally planned to destroy Gondor piecemeal. Time was working for him, so there was no point taking risks. He would have destroyed southern provinces first whilst making sure that Minas Tirith was unable to help. Also Saruman was going to destroy Rohan with his Blitzkrieg - a risky undertaking*) but one which carried little risk for Sauron himself, and even if it failed he had another army which would keep Rohan busy. However, he was led to believe Ring was in Gondor and he rushed to make an all-out assault against Minas Tirith itself.
*) In reality, Rohan had far stronger army than Saruman, but it was not mobilized. This point was not made very well in the movie.

By Steven P Allen 08 Jan 2004, 09:40

To keep in mind when comparing the military aspects of the movie and the books:
Tolkien's military experience was on the Western Front in WWI; Jackson's is an addiction to D & D.

By Taesu 08 Jan 2004, 11:37

Can anyone tell me estimated size of Gondor army?
How many were at Osgiliath?
I was told Gondor cavalry was about 400, is this accurate?
How many were at Minas Tirith?
I know that Rohan can muster 12,000 mounted warriors, but only half were assembled for the battle.
And how many survived the battle to make last stand at the Gate?

By Steven P Allen 08 Jan 2004, 24:07

First, a record of the original help that came from the southlands before the gate was shut and the Pelennor occupied.
Forlong (the Fat), Lord of Lossarnach: 200 (foot)
Lord Devorin of the Ringlo Vale: 300 (foot)
Lord Duinhir (and sons Duilin and Derifin) of the Morthond uplands: 500 (bowmen)
Lord Golasgil of the Anfalas: "a long line of men of many sorts."
Lamedon (captainless): "a few grim hillmen."
From the Ethir fisher-folk: "some hundred or more."
Lord Hirluin (the Fair) of Pinnath Gelin: 300
Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth: "a company of knights" and 700 men-at-arms.
"Less than three thousands full told."

As for the reinforcements that came later from Pelargir, it is unclear how many men Aragorn brought with him in the Corsairs' black ships, but the fleet was large, and so many hundreds might be guessed (the stupid movie had the dead coming north). The Grey Company of Northern Rangers (30) was with them, of course, as well as Elladan and Elrohir (and Legolas and Gimli). Aragorn also set some 4000 of the southern levies marching north toward Minas Tirith (as there was insufficient transport for them), and there were also stragglers and small groups that followed.
The number of men under arms in Minas Tirith at first is also never clarified, but it was a number much smaller than had been the case in the past. I'd guess a few thousand at most.

By Yama 08 Jan 2004, 24:17

quote:Originally posted by Taesu:
Can anyone tell me estimated size of Gondor army?
How many were at Osgiliath?
I was told Gondor cavalry was about 400, is this accurate?
How many were at Minas Tirith?
I know that Rohan can muster 12,000 mounted warriors, but only half were assembled for the battle.
And how many survived the battle to make last stand at the Gate?
AFAIK, Tolkien never gave us exact size of Gondor's army, so an indirect estimate must be done.
Full mobilization of all Rohirrim was supposed to amount 12,000 riders. In addition, Rohan had some more or less irregular foot militia. It is unlikely that Minas Tirith had smaller army. The reason why Theoden brought only 6000 Riders to Pelennor was because of haste, and losses in war versus Saruman. More Riders arrived after the battle.
IIRC, Southern provinces and fiefs sent combined total of 3,000 men to Minas Tirith before the battle. This was considerably less what they expected, and though some forces were quite elite and played prominant part in the battle, overall they weren't very signifant addition to forces of Denethor. Hence, I'd guessimate that Minas Tirith probably had around 15 to 25 000 men of her own, most of them infantry and archers. They apparently didn't have much cavalry of their own.
After Pelennor, Aragorn marched to Black Gate with force large enough to draw Sauron's attention, but still left sizable force (larger than original Minas Tirith garrison) to defend the City in the case his attempt failed. Originally his force amounted of 7000 men; 500 of which was Rohirrim cavalry, another 500 Dol Amroth knights and Northern Dunedain, 2000 on foot from Belfalas and other Southern domains, and rest were mostly Gondor's footmen. Main force of available Rohirrim Cavalry (around 3000) was sent to secure Western Road.
Less than six thousand actually arrived at the Black Gate: Aragorn had left small garrisoning forces, especially those whose moral began to crumble. There, Sauron met them with force "ten times or more larger" (maybe slight exaggaration, but not by much).

By Taesu 08 Jan 2004, 14:14

Thank you for the input Yama

By Heirophant 08 Jan 2004, 14:51

Good guesstimates, Yama. Similar to mine, but not quite.
From the books:
Some 2,000+ Rohirrim (dismounted) withstood the assault on Helm's Deep: The garrison of Helm's Deep, plus a force from Edoras (Rohan's capital) inc. Theoden's Royal Guard, plus a few stragglers from the Battle of the Fords in the west of Rohan.
I believe the reinforcements of Rohirrim totalled 3,000 or so, many actually on foot, as their horses had been killed in other battles. Of the 5,000 total of Rohan soldiers who fought at the Battle of Helm's Deep, some 2,000 were killed or too injured to fight.
Of Rohan's total army of 12,000+, Theoden could muster "10,000 spears" after Helm's Deep, when the aid of Rohan was urgently requested by Gondor. Theoden said he could send that many, but would not - he must leave a force to protect Rohan's people.
He came himself with 6,000 Rohirrim, presumably his elite royal guards and his veterans, but left 4,000 in Rohan.
A wise choice, as it was mentioned that there was a large army of Mordor orcs and Uruk-hai in eastern Rohan (the Eastfold) detected as the 6,000 rode to Minas Tirith. So we see that even with the defeat of Isengard's army of orcs, uruk-hai and Dunland hillmen, Rohan's peril was just beginning - which made the Ride of the Rohirrim to Gondor's aid even more heroic.
The Rohirrim were all cavalry, mounted on excellent horses. They fought with spear/lance, sword, and shield. Some were horse archers (unknown %, probably not 100% of all the Riders). Armor was not as advanced, presumably, as Gondor's, as Rohan itself was not as advanced a civilization.

As for Gondor's army, it is still possible to guesstimate, but trickier.
Steven is right about the "less than 3,000" from the fiefs to reinforce Minas Tirith before the siege. Let's call it roughly ~3,000. This does not count the regular Gondorian army in Minas Tirith, the Guards of the White Tower or the Rangers of Ithilien (the force of which Faramir was captain).
It was mentioned that the fiefs and provinces were expected to send forces 10 times as many but because indeed of the threat of the Corsairs of Umbar and presumably more Haradrim, they only sent "a tithe" (1/10 or 3,000) of their force. So we have a possible ~30,000 from the rest of Gondor; we now need to figure out the size of the Minas Tirith force.
Here it gets tricky: JRR Tolkien had certain "conventions" when he spoke about numbers of combatants.
1)If he wanted to illustrate the smallness of a force, as in the listing of the individual contingents in Minas Tirith, he would go into detail: 100, 200, 300 men etc.
2)If he did not go into detail, but mentioned a force without stating its size, then it could be "several hundred" to say 1,500+. Note the mentioning of the Dol Amroth force of "a company of Knights + 700 Men at Arms" - to illustrate that this was a good size unit.
3)If the force in question was 2,000 or more, he would start getting specific again.
We know there was a large but undetermined contingent from Minas Tirith which fought in Osgiliath: say between 500 to 1,500+, which was reinforced by the Rangers of Ithilien (Faramir said so himself), another 500 to 1,500+. So the Osgiliath defenders would have numbered roughly 1,000 - 3,000. This is the group which would have had to retreat across the fields.
In Minas Tirith itself, there were the Tower Guards (500+), and a force of Knights/Heavy Cavalry (500 to 1,000+). (The Tower Guard was the elite of the whole Gondor Army; there were no more such troops in the fiefs. However, the fiefs and provinces could presumably send more regulars and a few more horsemen.) That totals 1,500+ soldiers.
By these numbers, I think the total mobilized force of Gondor, would have been roughly 32,000 to 35,000 men.
Of that total, some 4,500 were in Minas Tirith at the start of Sauron's assault (3,000 from the provinces and 1,500+ from the City itself - quite believable). Anywhere from 1,500 to 3,000 were in Osgiliath.
My estimate of the total Minas Tirith cavalry available:
In the books, Minas Tirith had "few horsemen", but not zero. The small force it had was probably excellent - men as well armored and armed as was possible for those times, probably on armored horses as well. This force was carefully reserved until a critical moment of the battle: to reinforce the Rohirrim on the field.
Later on, it was mentioned that Dol Amroth would bring 500 knights/cavalrymen to the Black Gate. Presumably, these men were the remnants of the "company of knights of Dol Amroth", but were fit for duty. Add this to the say 500 to 1,000+ Minas Tirith knights/cavalry at the start, and we have maybe 1,000 to 1,500+ cavalry all told for Gondor.
(This even assumes that very few Dol Amroth knights died or were injured at the Pelennor, which is very unlikely.)
This agrees with Tolkien's tendency to be vague about any numbers from 500 to 1,500+ combatants. When he said that Gondor's cavalry made a sortie, he could well have been referring to say 1,000 to 1,500 men total - a small enough force.
How many Gondor soldiers were on the Black ships with Aragorn? Unknown, but probably quite a large number (how many can "50 large ships and countless smaller ones" hold?), enough to win the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and buy more time for Frodo.
Actually, I would put it at "many more than 6,000 men". It was mentioned that, to set out for the Black Gate, Aragorn and Imrahil would together muster that many out of those Aragorn had gathered in the fiefdoms. I presume that means gathered in the fiefdoms in the wake of the Deadmen of Dunharrow, and put aboard the Corsairs' ships. Many of these Gondor troops would have died or been injured in the battle, but there were still 6,000 who could go.
The rest of Gondor's reinforcements would not figure into this total as they would be arriving via forced marches, on land, too late to go to the Black gate.

Summary: (All numbers guesstimates)
Rohan total mobilized: 12,000
Fought at Helm's Deep: 2,000 initially, plus 3,000 reinforcments
Total: 5,000
Killed or injured badly at Helm's Deep: 2,000
Available to be sent to Gondor: 10,000
Actually rode to Gondor for the Battle of the Pelennor: 6,000
Left to guard Rohan civilians: 4,000

Gondor total mobilized: 32,000 to 35,000
Total for Minas Tirith itself: 5,000 of which
Rangers of Ithilien: up to 1,500
+Minas Tirith regulars: up to 1,500
=(Total Osgiliath defenders: 3,000)
Tower Guard: 500
knight cavalry: 1,000
Initial total from fiefs: ~3,000
Total inside Minas Tirith: 4,500 at battle start
Cavalry total: 1,500 (500 Dol Amroth + 1,000 Minas Tirith)
Total in Minas Tirith + Osgiliath: 7,500
Gondor reinforcements aboard the captured Black Fleet: much more than 6,000
Total Rohirrim killed or incapacitated at the Pelennor: 2,000
Total Gondorians killed or incapacitated: A lot more?
Now all we need is a detailed look at Isengard's and Mordor's orders of battle.

By Yama 08 Jan 2004, 18:43

quote:Originally posted by Heirophant:

Of Rohan's total army of 12,000+, Theoden could muster "10,000 spears" after Helm's Deep, when the aid of Rohan was urgently requested by Gondor. Theoden said he could send that many, but would not - he must leave a force to protect Rohan's people.
Well, isn't this a nice number-crunching thread..
My recollections and estimates are bit different. IIRC, Theoden said that under normal conditions he could send "ten thousand spears" to help Gondor: full strength of Riders was 12,000 men (one eored of 120 men was supposedly 1/100th of full call of Riders) - but Riders were not only soldiers Rohan had, they had also militia of sort for those who were too weak/poor to be Riders (presumably Rohirrim military system was Mongolic in some respects).
Reason why Saruman was deadly threat to Rohan was not the strength of his army: Rohan had larger and better army. Problem was that Saruman struck before Theoden had mobilized his army, and this mobilization was still underway when he rode for Gondor. This, combined with losses and having to leave forces behind to protect Rohan meant that Theoden had just 6000 Riders. IIRC, some more Riders arrived to Minas Tirith after Pelennor <too lazy to check book>.

quote:
It was mentioned that the fiefs and provinces were expected to send forces 10 times as many but because indeed of the threat of the Corsairs of Umbar and presumably more Haradrim, they only sent "a tithe" (1/10 or 3,000) of their force. So we have a possible ~30,000 from the rest of Gondor; we now need to figure out the size of the Minas Tirith force.
IIRC, 'tithe' specificially refers to 200 men who arrived with Forlong: he was expected to bring ten times as much. So Denethor was not expecting as many as 30,000 men from Southern levies, I doubt they even had that much.
quote:
By these numbers, I think the total mobilized force of Gondor, would have been roughly 32,000 to 35,000 men.
Of that total, some 4,500 were in Minas Tirith at the start of Sauron's assault (3,000 from the provinces and 1,500+ from the City itself - quite believable). Anywhere from 1,500 to 3,000 were in Osgiliath.
I roughly agree with your total number, but I disagree with distribution. I think that Minas Tirith had quite a bit more than just few thousand men. It is mentioned that City was somewhat depopulated, but still it must have had considerable force (at least 10 000), because as can be seen, levies could not be expected to always deliver large amount of forces due to their own problems, and there is no way Minas Tirith would have survived with it's own force of just few thousand strong. Also, 'Minas Tirith' consisted quite a bit countryside around the White Tower itself (Pelennor was an agricultural area, something which movie didn't depict) so it must have had quite a bit population. Presumably, previous battles of Osgiliath had been fought almost purely by Denethor's own forces and they were often quite victorious.
I tend to agree that total strength of Gondor military was probably around 30,000 men (not counting Rohan who IIRC were still technically vassals), though in reality they could probably not deploy them all in one place.
Imrahil (IIRC) mentions that Aragorn's force of 7000 was just a "vanguard for forces of the old days", likely in the Good Old Days Gondor could field an army at least twice as large as by end of Third Age. This is supported by Tolkien's assertion that Minas Tirith had just half of the population the City could have supported.
quote:
Now all we need is a detailed look at Isengard's and Mordor's orders of battle.
<font size=1>
Ha! Good luck with them
Actually we know that Saruman had around 10,000 Orcs and Uruks, plus probably few hundred human allies. I don't think I have ever seen any number about armies of Mordor: it is mentioned that Sauron's army at Black Gate was "ten times or more superior" to that of Aragorn, so it was at least 55-60,000 strong then, but it may be an exaggaration...winners write the history
All numbers guesses: I think that army which fought in Pelennor probably was 40 to 50 000 strong: in addition to that Sauron had Umbar Corsairs (?, at least 5000 IMHO, likely more), his Centre Army which tried to attack Rohan and was defeated by Ents (this was quite small, 10 000 at best?) and his Northern Army which attacked Lonely Mountain (quite large). Plus he had his strategic reserve in Mordor, which came to Morannon. It is difficult to estimate how many of those were survivors from Pelennor.
Puhh. But this is still easy compared to analysing Nirnaeth Arnodiad...

By Heirophant 09 Jan 2004, 01:52

Excellent, now I have a desire to re-read certain parts of the books! I'll get back to you about those numbers.
One thing I did wonder about, regarding the movies, was what happenned to the Easterlings and the Haradrim?
We see the Easterlings marching through the Black Gate in The Two Towers, and we see the column of Haradrim: Mumakil escorted by infantry - "He is gathering all armies to him" says Gollum. That sums it up quite nicely.
That made me expect a truly huge Battle of the Pelennor with those troops thrown in. They never appear, except for the Mumakil.
Do you have any theories why not?

By Argus 09 Jan 2004, 02:21

When calculating the Gondorian OoB, I'd be careful of including the Tower/Tree gurad into the general infantry strength. It's my understanding that these men were rather inflexiable in how they saw their role, that is they would defend the tower (or tree) but not the city as a whole.
That asside my main beef with Jackson was Gimli, for all his D&D playing that man has no respect for Dwarves.
shane

By Sebastian Balos 09 Jan 2004, 11:19

In Making of 'The Lord of the Rings', authors state that Saruman's force at Helm's Deep was about 10,000 Orcs and Uruks and that at the battle on Pellenor fields Sauron's forces amounted up to 600,000 Orcs. Dod Sauron have any Urucs? If not, how can be possible that his Orcs are so huge? I thought Orcs are shorter that humans. Also, Urucs shoud be slightly smaller than humans, which's not the case in the movie.

By Heirophant 10 Jan 2004, 12:56

Actually, I believe the "soldiers of the Tower of Guard" (the Tower of Ecthelion, properly speaking), which I shortened to "Tower Guard", was a fighting elite with a battlefield role.
Boromir, when he was alive, was the Captain of this force, and he had a main part to play in Gondor's initial victorious defense of Osgiliath (of course, along with his brother Faramir). Presumably, if the captain of the White Tower could fight thus, so could his men.
Also, at the Black Gate, there were soldiers from the Tower of Guard around the Prince of Dol Amroth, and they withstood the final assault there.
So I think the Tower Guard clearly would fight on the field in time of war.

By Heirophant 10 Jan 2004, 01:24

The Uruk-hai were, I believe, a race of Orc developed by Sauron, originally, and then copied by Saruman.
Sauron probably had far, far more Uruk-hai than Saruman could ever dream of, but his armies were simply so vast that the Uruk-hai were not the majority. After all, he also had Orcs, Men (Easterlings, Haradrim, Troll-men from far Harad, Variags from "Khand"), Trolls (Olog-hai, mountain, hill etc.).
The regular Mordor Orcs, quite apart from Mordor Uruks, being depicted as large and fearsome: this is because of that chapter in the Two Towers in which differing breeds of Orcs were noticed by Merry and Pippin as they were being carried off.
The wild Orcs of the Misty Mountains were shorter and smaller than Men or Elves, and not as strong or stout as Dwarves. These were the kind encountered in Moria.
The contingent from Isengard, led by Ugluk, seemed to be exclusively Uruk-hai: these were man-height or more, broad and probably stronger than men.
The Mordor contingent, led by Grishnakh, were not Uruks but were very large Orcs, much closer to the Uruk-hai in size and strength than to the wild Orcs. Sauron may have wanted an army composed only of Uruk-hai (although he had very many of those); barring this, he "bred" the rest of his regular Orcs to be as tough and mean as possible.
Saruman, though, had his own wrinkle to add to the art of orc-breeding: he bred a man-size race of "Orc-Men", a cross between Men and Orcs/Uruk-hai. These were mentioned in the book.

By Kding 10 Jan 2004, 08:33

The way I always interpreted it, the Uruk Hai -were- Saruman's orc/man crossbreeds, and the least orcish looking of them (the ones with the highest proportion of man blood, presumably) he used as spies and emmisaries. Saruman, not having vast resources available to him, could only support a relatively small number of troops, and came up with a way to make -all- of them elite (relatively speaking)
Sauron's realms were vast, and he could afford to support equally vast numbers of troops. Hence his forces, having so many more orcs and breeds of orc to choose from, formed elite corps by cherrypicking the biggest, strongest, and most fierce orcs from among the bigger, stronger, and fiercer breeds available, and then giving them better rations, equipment, and (presumably) training.
Orcs sent on special missions (like Grishnak's troop) would be of the elite type. Garrisons that didnt rate a nazgul or black numenorean for a commander got one of these guys instead (like Shagrat, who was rather capable, and unusually loyal to "lugburz") The witch king, captain of minas morgul, seems to have placed more value on having generally higher quality troops than did Sauron too. While he probably didnt get to cherry pick the best orcs nearly so much, did feed and equip his better.

By Stefan Fredriksson 11 Jan 2004, 08:34

I have also always believed that the Uruk-hai were Saruman's invention?
That Sauron cross-breeds stuff like Orcs and other ilks I have no doubt about, but Uruk-hai was particular for Isengard.

By Yama 11 Jan 2004, 24:41

quote:Originally posted by Stefan Fredriksson:
I have also always believed that the Uruk-hai were Saruman's invention?
That Sauron cross-breeds stuff like Orcs and other ilks I have no doubt about, but Uruk-hai was particular for Isengard.
Uruk-hai first appeared in early Third Age (IIRC), larger breed of Orcs, apparently simply bred from lesser orcs by Sauron.
Saruman, however, tinkered with Uruk-hai further (it is apparent he mixed them with humans) so that they would be more resistant to sunlight. Some of the more human-like Uruk-hai (or Uruk-like humans) were called half-orcs.
So, both Saruman and Sauron had Uruks, but they weren't 100% similar.

By Kding 11 Jan 2004, 13:06

OK.. I did a little looking, and it looks like I was mistaken.
Uruk Hai first appeared in year 2475 of the third age concomitant with the final ruin of Osgiliath, and working for Sauron.
Saruman returned from wandering in the east (for perhaps 1000 years) a mere 12 years earlier in 2463. He was not givin the keys to Isengard until 3rd Age, 2759, and so, presumably did not originate the Uruk Hai (as he would have had no place to keep them)

Unless, of course, he was already corrupted in the east and bred them there under Sauron's tutelage (thinking all the time, of course, that he was the manipulator rather than the manipulatee) This would require that Saruman have been corrupted long before his acquisition of the Palantir of Orthanc, though.

By Stefan Fredriksson 11 Jan 2004, 16:24

How did you come by that detailed info.
All I have is (English title not mentioned in book??):
"The world of the Ring. Documents concerning the stories about the one Ring." (direct translation, by me).
In that it says for 3rd age, 2475, that Osgiliath is finally destroyed, its stone-bridge broken. Doesn't mention Orcs, even less Uruk-Hai.
Could be that things have gotten lost in translation though.
Or that this is the abbreviated version.
That is why I want your source. Obviously a book I need!

By Kding 11 Jan 2004, 17:07

Not a book, but a very extensive web site.
Search for "Encyclopedia of Arda"

By Stefan Fredriksson 12 Jan 2004, 09:35

Will check it. Thanks.
Question is if Tolkien himself somewhere mentions it was Uruk-hai doing it. Or if someone has *assumed* it was so.

By swerve 12 Jan 2004, 24:11

quote:Originally posted by Stefan Fredriksson:
How did you come by that detailed info.
All I have is (English title not mentioned in book??):
"The world of the Ring. Documents concerning the stories about the one Ring." (direct translation, by me).
In that it says for 3rd age, 2475, that Osgiliath is finally destroyed, its stone-bridge broken. Doesn't mention Orcs, even less Uruk-Hai.
Could be that things have gotten lost in translation though.
Or that this is the abbreviated version.
That is why I want your source. Obviously a book I need!
<font size=1>
That's from Appendix B of the Lord of the Rings, hardback edition, 3rd volume, "The Return of the King". Appendix B is a chronology from the beginning of the 2nd Age to the early years of the 4th age (ie. after the destruction of the Ring). Your translation is an accurate rendition of Tolkiens original English.
"2475 Attack on Gondor renewed. Osgiliath finally ruined, and its stone-bridge broken".
That's all it says.
Uruk is stated in Appendix F to be a word of the Black Speech, no doubt related to the Sindarin word Orch. It states Uruk was generally applied only to the great soldier-orcs, lesser orcs being called snaga, "slave", especially by the Uruk-hai. Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in Eldar Days. A breed of trolls called Olog-hai is mentioned, bred by Sauron.

I think JRR Tolkien must have known Berkshire. He has Newbury near Bucklebury, which is right - though Bucklebury has a ford, not a ferry, as the Pang's a tiny river. And the Shire has Downs. Micheldever (almost Michel Delving!) is in the next county, though. Used to have a really good pub run by a Frenchman.

By Quang 15 Jan 2004, 09:15

The defense of Osgiliath in the movie: I'm wondering why Faramir chose to use a series of infantry ambushes in the ruins, sometimes backed up by archers? Does that make sense to you?
They seemed to be on the lookout for such an amphibious landing. Why wasn't there any attempt to provide illumination? rain arrows down on the landing barges? or used incendiary arrows/devices on the barges?
Quang

By Colin 15 Jan 2004, 11:54

A question: In most mythology the dark side hate/fear water, would the forces of Saroun also have this fear/loathing? If so the destruction of the bridge would certainly be a major issue, as it would take a great deal of effort to force the Orc army across the river.
During the retreat over the open plains, would you not use a cavalry screen and mounted archers to keep the enemy at bay?
To bad they didn’t have a few dozen Vickers machineguns. They could have been chugging away for hours into the Orcs!

By Kding 15 Jan 2004, 13:37

In Tolkein's mythology, evil has good reason to fear the water, as it is the realm of Ulmo, 2nd most powerful of the Valar. When Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli committed Boromir's body to the Anduin, they did so with the hope that the river, being yet untainted (ie still within Ulmo's realm) would guard it from desecration and eventually carry it to the sea.
And the problem with mounted archers, at least in the book, is that a) Gondor, especially Minas Tirith, was poorly provided with cavalry, and b) the retreat over the Pelenor was -nearly- a route due to the efforts of the Nazgul. Fresh troops might have been able to do something, but Faramir's force was tired, tense, and had been under the psychic assault of the Nazgul for some time.

By Steven P Allen 15 Jan 2004, 14:45

In "The Hunt for the Rong," Tolkien specifically states that the first assault on Osgiliath (the year before the War of the Ring) was mounted specifically to gain the Nazgul access to the bridge in order to cross Anduin in order to hunt down Baggins. Boromir discusses this assualt and its aftermath during the Council of Elrond.

By Heirophant 15 Jan 2004, 16:40

quote:Originally posted by Quang:
The defense of Osgiliath in the movie: I'm wondering why Faramir chose to use a series of infantry ambushes in the ruins, sometimes backed up by archers? Does that make sense to you?
They seemed to be on the lookout for such an amphibious landing. Why wasn't there any attempt to provide illumination? rain arrows down on the landing barges? or used incendiary arrows/devices on the barges?
Quang
The director (in this case, Peter Jackson) has the option of interpreting those parts of the books which details are left abstract, like the Osgiliath battle.
It seems reasonable to assume that the defenders would have lookouts posted at intervals along the Anduin river's edge, especially at the likeliest crossing points into Osgiliath (for example, around the ruined bridge).
The bulk of the force would be held some distance back (a few hundred paces, say) so that they could be deployed where the danger was greatest. This in itself would be tricky, as the Mordor commanders were experienced and cunning, and would employ ruses and deceptions to draw out and pin down the Gondorians.
Alert defenders under a fine commander, like Faramir, would be able to move quickly enough to do the following:
-Send hails of arrows and crossbow bolts into the packed masses of Orcs, Uruks and Men aboard the barges. The first waves of the enemy might even be broken this way, without need for melee.
Gondor's army was the heir to the Numenorean art of war, and they (Numenoreans) had quite a reputation for deadly, efficient archery, so one could expect this phase of the battle to go well for the defenders.
-As mentioned, perhaps shoot incendiary arrows and bolts to set fire to the barges (maybe, though the armies of Mordor were competent enough to moisten the wood of their vessels in anticipation of this).
-In the confusion of the initial landings, launch a series of well-timed attacks at the water's edge to throw back the attackers and kill as many as possible.
Inevitably, the enemy would not be held at the water's edge, and so the fighting would move into the ruins. The defenders would have to slowly retreat into the western portion of Osgiliath, all the while fighting and counter-attacking, while taking care not to be surrounded or overrun.
(I believe it was this phase of the battle portrayed in the movie.)

By Van Owen 16 Jan 2004, 15:22

A little off-topic, but for whatever reason, the Ride of the Rohirrim at Pelennor Fields in the movie reminded me of Sobieski's Relief of Vienna from the Turks. Am I the only one seeing this?

By Taesu 17 Jan 2004, 01:32

I just recieved January 2004 edition of The Journal of Military History.
Michael C. Paul's The Military Revolution in Russia, 1550-1682, describe military organization of Russia during that time. Before the introduction of gunpowder, Muscovy depended on militia entity made up entirely cavalry. In exchange for land, a family is responsible for mustering a mounted warrior with full gear once a year for inspection. If the family failed to fulfill its responsibility, Tsar have the right to take the land from them. During said period, Muscovy has 25,000 warriors at its disposal. Paul's description of Russian military at that time is interestingly similiar both in appearance and capability of Riders of Rohans.
PS: Van Owen, since you mentioned it, the battle in the novel/movie, sure sound like Battle of Vienna, with more decisive result and unified command than the historic one.

By Heirophant 18 Jan 2004, 02:43

Van Owen, Taesu
The parallels you draw are apt enough, and there are probably more from history.
I believe I read somewhere that Professor Tolkien wanted not only to hark back to the mythic, epic tales of old, but also wanted his work to be grounded in actual history, the more to ring true.
I don't think he was patterning events in his books on only one mythology, but several. In fact, he believed myths embodied eternal and universal human truths, to which all peoples could understand and relate.
In the same way, he combined elements of many historical periods - it's up to the readers to find echoes in their own experiences.

By Sven Arvidsson 18 Jan 2004, 17:27

Very interesting debate, gentlemen. I'm very impressed.
Stefan: Ringens värld, to which you refer, is a neat little trick from the Swedish publisher to get more money out of the avid reader. By making the appendices and indexes of the LOTR into a seperate volume they can get a few extra kronor out of you.
For a very detailed account of practically every little note Tolkien wrote, you might consider the History of Middle-Earth, in twelve volumes. Anyone read volume VIII, "The War of the Ring", and IX "Sauron defeated"? Should cover some of the bits this thread is discusssing.

By Simon Tan 18 Jan 2004, 21:52

In a sense the defenders of Osgiliath in the movie were about as competent as the Iraqis. They completely failed to conduct any sort of engineering tasks to improve their positions. The Uruk were able to land and push out relatively easily from the landing points. These should have been reconnoitered beforehand and obstructed with rubble and trapped with all sorts of nastiness.
Note also the near complete lack of kill zones in Minas Tirith's defences. Strictly third rate fortifications.
The defensive weapons also sucked. They completely lacked any AT capability. Anti-Troll that is. One would have imagined ballsitae to be the preferred solution, especially volley fired.
All in all....I am hoping that the Hobbit has a better battle.

By Gadfly 19 Jan 2004, 24:08

I agree. Someone competent could have put up a longer-lived defense of Osgiliath.
So far, nobody has mentioned where the catapults and siege towers came from. The movie makes no reference to this, but they must have been carried by trolls or transport parties. This means that Sauron had to move not only men, but critical force-multiplier assets across the river. Kill off enough of this stuff at the water’s edge and the battle for Minas Tirith is over before it begins. I doubt Sauron would have brought his heavy equipment up so early, but even a small force of archers supported by melee troops would force Sauron to secure the crossing site, or risk his force multipliers before the real show.
On the other hand, I suspect Sauron could have bypassed Osgiliath totally by crossing at another point, albeit at greater risk to loosing a portion of his force in the crossing. He certainly managed to carry lots of wood and rope– it might be worth considering bringing some more for tactical bridging and rafting, which would enable him to mount a crossing unopposed anywhere. When not pushing siege towers around, the trolls would have doubled nicely as heavy engineer equipment to aid in bridge building or pulling guide-ropes for rafts. Without artillery, the bypassed Osgiliath garrison is pretty harmless if kept surrounded.
Minas Tirith clearly was expecting an assault down the road from Osgiliath at Pelennor Fields, and had arrayed its forces to meet that threat axis. Crossing unopposed somewhere near Osgiliath and attacking from an unpredicted direction would also force Minas Tirith to hastily redeploy its troops and artillery from prepared positions.
To sum it up, the ideal river-crossing point at Osgiliath was a good bait, and Sauron fell right for it. Unfortunately (as Simon notes) the defending force screwed up and blew the chance. Basically a replay of the “Battle of the Bridges” at An Nasiriyah in OIF.

The defenses at Minas Tirith was supported by Trebuchet heavy artillery – however, artillery employment was basically confined to dropping heavy unitary projectiles randomly across the battlefield. Where they hit, their impact was impressive, but did nothing to cause the well-organized formations to scatter. Hurling large numbers of smaller projectiles (i.e. “cluster” weapons) would have had the critical effect of having formations scatter and in no order to stage an assault over the fortress walls.
Importantly, the defenders at Minas Tirith missed another opportunity to direct indirect fire against enemy force multipliers – the siege towers and catapults. A coordinated fire plan directed against both of these could still turn the battle or at least limit the heavy casualties they caused. Using far lighter projectiles would mean more ready ammunition per Trebuchet and give the defenders a range advantage over Sauron’s lighter mobile catapults.
Ultimately, the Trebuchet artillery at Minas Tirith was a waste of time and more suited for offensive breaching rather than defensive work. From what I saw in the movie, there were also rather few of them and were purely fixed position weapons. They were also deployed in highly vulnerable positions along the fortification perimeter instead of securely behind the lines (no forward observers), nor were they casemated or otherwise hardened in any way.
I get the idea they might have been “prestige” or deterrent items in peacetime (much like heavy battleships in the 1930s) . However, a more balanced force of lighter catapult artillery paired with ballistae for long range direct fire would have been far more flexible in war.

By Tim the Tank Nut 19 Jan 2004, 24:31

From a movie point of view:
Gandalf speaks to Denethor's lack of preparation for the coming fight. Maybe Denethor had a Hitler complex. He bought weapons he thought were cool (Maus, E100). The army seemd poorly led and you can't blame Faramir for it because his CO cut him off at the hips. Also, I think a lot of the tactical oversights had more to do with the movie's length than anything else. Maybe the DVD will be more complete.

By Kding 19 Jan 2004, 24:33

As long as we're complaining about the depiction of the seige engines....
All of them were throwing rediculously large projectiles. Even a one cubic meter chunk of masonry (smaller than those shown in the film) would weigh in at around 4000kg, and be -far- too heavy to be thrown by such engines. But that's movieland. Gotta have things look bigger and more dangerous than reality for those who dont know the difference.

By Simon Tan 19 Jan 2004, 21:47

Much like the non-ballistic arcs of the Roman trebuchet in Gladiator. I hate....hate....dumbing down for dumb people.
Simon

By Taesu 19 Jan 2004, 23:26

Little bit off topic.
Has anyone played Warcraft or/and Warhammer?
If neither, which game is your favorite wargame set in Tolkienesque world?

By Simon Tan 20 Jan 2004, 04:49

Disciples II. I hate RTS.

By Steven P Allen 20 Jan 2004, 09:29

MERP.

quote:Originally posted by Taesu:
Little bit off topic.
Has anyone played Warcraft or/and Warhammer?
If neither, which game is your favorite wargame set in Tolkienesque world?

By Steven P Allen 20 Jan 2004, 09:54

What's missing from this discussion is better reference to the actual progress of the campaign (as opposed to @sshat Jackson's wet-dream-on-film).
Osgiliath was indefensible given the technology of the time and the resources available to Faramir. If Denethor had a Hitler-complex, what can we say of those here who talk of sweeping the orcs back into the river, etc., etc. Soneone once wrote that defending the guns at Point du Hoc against any assault required nothing more than a small group of grandmothers with brooms. Yet the 2nd Rangers were successful. How much less likely is it that Faramir's depleted forces could resist an invading force nearly as great as all those of the Allies on D-Day in terrain much friendlier to the attacker?
Next, we have to remember that there was an intermediate step between the capture of the west bank of Osgiliath and the siege of Minas Tirith. Jackson, in order to make room for more of the scenes which existed only in his lame imagination, neglects the fact that the Pelennor was fortified: the Rammas Echor. The causeway which carried the main road over the river bottom lands was heavily embattled.
After Faramir was forced back from Osgiliath, he rallied his forces there (March 12th). The Witch King brought more forces--presumably including the siege engines (though most were still awaiting new bridges)--over the river and assaulted the forts early the next day. The day's delay was dearly bought (as several tried to point out to Denethor), but it did give the Rohirrim the time they needed to reach the western edge of the Pelennor (fortunately finding the orcs disassembling the Rammas, not holding it against them).
Given the "correlation of forces," the day's delay was the best Faramir could do. Sauron wasn't driving all his troops across at a single point: they crossed at many points. Indeed, a complete field army from the Morannon crossed upriver and took Cair Andros. This was the army which then swept into Anorien to try to cut off the road from Edoras (without success, thanks to the Woses) and was still afield after the breaking of the siege.
Tolkien did a very good job of plotting a credible campaign. It's not his fault Jackson based his script on D & D.

By Manu 20 Jan 2004, 11:58

About the catapults :
even if placed out in the open, the siege artillery from Minas Tirith is• placed high, which means they reach farther than equivalent weapons at ground level. And large trebuchets are the longest-ranged medieval weapons. Which means they would outrange anything that might be arrayed to knock them out and hopefully destroy it before it can even fire.
bringing in the siege weapons : the orcs have rebuild Osigiliath’s bridge• to allow them to cross the river, so no need for transports, only a few cartloads of timber. One can note that Minas Tirith’s forces did a very poor job of wrecking it, downing only one arch. Destroying more of it would have slowed the siege, buying more time for Rohan’s rider to come. A devious trick could have been to undermine a pile, to have it crash down under a heavy load such a siege machine.
Projectiles used : I agree that using a load of smaller projectiles would• have been more effective, and compensate for the limited aiming range of the trebuchets. Flaming stuff would have been even better to shoot at the siege equipment. As far as weight go, stone weights 1500 to 2500 kg/cubic meter for the most common sorts.
Battle in Osgiliath :
I was surprised by the lack of archery on Minas Tirith’s side – even in the mist a volley fire would have downed many orcs – and a few light catapults could have sunk down bargeloads of them.
There was also a total lack of preparation on the shore : all passages were left open, there was nothing to slows down the orcs – basic tricks such as pointed stakes in the water, caltrops, walling off most of the passages and such would have let the defender to take a far heavier toll and slowed down the assault
Pelenor field
I was a bit disappointed that the elephants were alone – the army that Frodo and Sam saw pouring out of Mordor seems to have vanished on it’s way to Minas Tirith, save for the elephants.

By arcweasel 20 Jan 2004, 24:03

quote:Originally posted by Manu:
As far as weight go, stone weights 1500 to 2500 kg/cubic meter for the most common sorts.
<mr picky on> Most "rock" is 2.7-2.8 tonnes/m^3. Its also more likely to be higher than lower. (It's unlikely they where flinging pumice). <mr picky off>

By Steven P Allen 20 Jan 2004, 24:28

quote:Originally posted by Manu:
About the catapults :

Tolkien specifically points out that the engines on the walls were neither large enough nor powerful enough to out-range those employed by Sauron's forces.

By Kding 20 Jan 2004, 24:46

I guess I was flinging great big chunks of iron ore rather than marble/granite. 2000-3000 kg/m^3 is still way too heavy, given the volumes and distances they were throwing.

By Manu 21 Jan 2004, 02:17

quote:Originally posted by Steven P Allen:

Tolkien specifically points out that the engines on the walls were neither large enough nor powerful enough to out-range those employed by Sauron's forces.
I didn't remember that point - tough is quite logical - Minas Tirith's walls are probably quite cramped, preventing the installation of too large catapults. Which negates the height advantage.
And considering Sauron's intelligence assets, he probably had a good idea of the defender's artillery range and made sure his own artillery would outrange them.

By Van Owen 21 Jan 2004, 03:56

Speaking of elephants, (or Oliphants, if memory serves) wouldn't the Rohirrim, have been better off flanking them? Certainly, that basic tactic wouldn't have been beyond them. Almost as bad as all the bayonet armed infantry in Last Samauri not being able to stop a cavalry charge!!!

By Colin 21 Jan 2004, 10:39

quote:Originally posted by Van Owen:
Speaking of elephants, (or Oliphants, if memory serves) wouldn't the Rohirrim, have been better off flanking them? Certainly, that basic tactic wouldn't have been beyond them. Almost as bad as all the bayonet armed infantry in Last Samauri not being able to stop a cavalry charge!!!
I certainly agree, they must have known that they were going to face these beasts and charging into them was insane. the Infantry was broken and they had time to break up the line of elephants before the infantry would reform. I would use lines of mounted archers to hit the weak spots (eyes, malmut, and underbelly) the calvary could be use to taunt them into breaking line and exposing their flanks and rears.
I was also surprised at no earth works in front of the city, hell even early britions managed that! a large ditch would have precluded the use of siege towers and the ditches in the plains would have hampered the movement of large units.
Also as mention, the people in charge of the crossing defence should have been hung, nothing was done to prepare the ground and the better destruction of the bridge was truely needed.
Otherwise I enjoyed the movie and this thread!

By Steven P Allen 21 Jan 2004, 24:06

quote:Originally posted by Colin:
I would use lines of mounted archers to hit the weak spots (eyes, malmut, and underbelly) the calvary could be use to taunt them into breaking line and exposing their flanks and rears.
Which is just about exactly what Tolkien described.
quote:I was also surprised at no earth works in front of the city, hell even early britions managed that! a large ditch would have precluded the use of siege towers and the ditches in the plains would have hampered the movement of large units.
Sauron's forces dug many ditches and dykes around the city walls to protect their siege engines from attack. Gondor's forces spent their time and effort trying to repair the Rammas Echor, especially the Casuseway Forts. The trade off was probably worth it, as the delay at the forts allowed the Rohirrim to arrive in time. I don't think earthworks before the gate would have provided the same delay.

Ni borde skaffa The Atlas of Tolkiens Middle-Earth av Karen Wynn Fonstad.

Enligt den hade exempelvis "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields"

Total Estimated Forces of Gondor 11,250 (inkluderar Rohirrim)

Total Estimated Forces of Mordor Minimum 45,000

Det finns även redogörelser för hur detta räknats fram.